Ep 3. No more night wakings! Tips on how to help your child sleep well
No more night wakings. Tips on how to help your child sleep well
Claudine has well and truly ‘been there’. Claudine has had her own personal experience with sleep deprivation which started her along this journey to becoming the first sleep consultant in Abu Dhabi. Claudine is passionate about helping other parents who are struggling to navigate their child’s sleep and has helped over 250 families to achieve their goals in person and online.
Claudine shares her journey with me, what led her to becoming a sleep consultant and some tips and tricks on how we can support our children to have a good nights sleep in turn allowing us parents to get that well deserved rest also.
Season 1 Ep 3
Listen here
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hi mama you’re listening to the mama
podcast it’s Sumayya here the co-founder
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of mama ME app
mama me is the first app to exclusively
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connect mothers
across the middle east connect with
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like-minded mamas and create lifelong
friendships
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at mama we are all about connecting
mamas to empower women
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so let’s join together and make this
mission a reality
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today we’re talking about the
all-important subject
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sleep i’m joined by the incredibly
knowledgeable claudine
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qualified sleep sense consultant and she
has helped
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over 250 families achieve
their sleep goals i know this was a
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topic that i needed support with
and so i was really excited to bring
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this episode to you have a chat with me
i know this will be a super valuable one
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for the listeners
thank you for inviting me i really
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appreciate it
um i think your story is really
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interesting and how you actually managed
to get to becoming a sleep consultant
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um is a really interesting story
and i would love for you to sort of
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share that with us if that’s okay with
you
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yeah of course no problem so um
my son was um born
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in doha in 2014 and
um when i when i met my husband
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he had already had two children in his
previous marriage so
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um i honestly thought i was marrying a
parenting expert
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not to say he’s not parenting it’s but
but i really felt like i was married
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someone who knew
exactly what to expect and anticipate
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and so i was pretty relaxed about
finding out what it was going to be like
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once the baby was born
um i focused a lot on how i was feeling
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during my pregnancy and taking care of
me but
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i didn’t really look ahead to when my
son was born
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uh how i was going to take care of him
and and the challenges that that might
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present um and i also
um was 39 when he was born so i was
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fairly
um happy that i’d had a full and an
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exciting life up until that point so i
was really willing to give myself
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over to being a mother and to doing
whatever the
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child needed for uh needed from me
um which is all great and fine and it
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kind of allows aligns
with what some people would describe as
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attachment parenting and i certainly
identified with that quite a lot in the
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early years of my son’s life
um so i was breastfeeding i was
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co-sleeping
i was responding i was very
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um you know aware of kind of the sensory
type of
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activities that is suggested for babies
without potentially spending an awful
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lot of time on
self-care um but also without
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necessarily recognizing
the importance of something um
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fundamental to our well-being which is
sleep
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so as a result of being so responsive
it was more like the baby was deciding
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what was needed
as opposed to the parent and obviously
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as an adult i’ve got a much better
handle on what’s important than a
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newborn baby
um i’m not saying babies don’t know what
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they need but you know in terms of the
wider world babies are obviously
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not um in a place to um be clear on
all of the um things that we as human
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beings require to to live well and to
live
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healthily so fast forward two and a half
years um
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my husband and i were in separate rooms
we had
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tried all kinds of things to encourage
um our son to sleep through the night
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and the reality was
that he had no um good sleep habits or
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no
uh independent sleep habits and good and
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bad is not great words to use to
describe
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circumstances of course but you know
what people would describe as good is
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what i would describe as independent so
he needed someone there he needed
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someone there at nap time he needed
someone
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at bedtime he needed someone there
through the night he was still being
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breastfed at two and a half
so if i was nearby it would be that if
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his dad was nearby it would be
some form of physical comfort and the
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reality is we were all exhausted
joseph was absolutely um
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under the target of sleep for his age um
and
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it could not carry on in our home for
any longer
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so um having googled
um you know sleep training or sleep
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sleep healthy sleep today
um we we decided to hire a sleep
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consultant because we wanted hands-on
help
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and we lived in abu dhabi at the time we
managed to find a lady in dubai
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who helped us with our sleep training
journey
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um and it was quite literally so
transformative
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for us as a family um you know
it was like a miracle descended on our
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home um
my husband and i were back in our room
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my son was in his own room
um i mean just things like my son
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out grew two cops before he ever slept
in them that’s how
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little time he spent in his own bed um
and in the time between the time in
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which we embarked on
sleep training him um within a month i
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was on a plane to florida to
be trained to be a sleep consultant
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because i just knew
i had to bring this experience and this
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opportunity to sleep well to other
families
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um and at the time because we lived in
abu dhabi i knew there was nobody else
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in abu dhabi offering that because we
hired our lady from
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dubai and so i knew there was a lot of
families in abu dhabi that that would
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benefit and
that needed this because i was talking
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to anybody who was
stood still for more than five seconds
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how’s your translate what do you do
how’d you get them to sleep why is it
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working for you not working for me why
am i failing at this and you’re
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succeeding
i you know i was analyzing and and um
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interviewing anybody who was a parent i
was with a child
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um whether they were younger or older
we’ll say major is my son
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so it was you know very i was kind of
not obsessive but i was very
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um absorbed by it as a subject
and um once it had been resolved for us
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and it was so
amazing to have that experience i just
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wanted to to
as i say give that gift of sleep to
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other families
so um i got on a plane to florida that
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was the last day that i breastfed my son
i had to leave the country to wean him
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off breastfeeding which
again sounds quite radical in hindsight
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probably is but
i’ve been in a lot of mum’s position and
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i know what it feels like to be
um both at a loss of how to handle
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things and what to do and therefore
i’m also well placed to help them with
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their journey
to get the outcome that they want and
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deserve
so you actually touched on quite a few
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very important points during that sort
of explanation of how you managed to get
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to sleep consulting so if i
if you i will take you back a few steps
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if that’s okay with you
and um ask you a few questions and maybe
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um if you could sort of share
you explained that you were struggling
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with sleep with your son and it was two
and a half years
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and i know from
you’ve sort of mentioned that you’ve the
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longest period of time you actually
managed to sleep during that two and a
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half years
was five hours which is incredible to
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to think that you managed to get through
two and a half years on like
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the biggest chunk of sleep was five
hours
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and so you must have felt pretty
exhausted
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do you remember how you felt back then
or is that sort of a distant memory now
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um so my son’s five and a half so it’s
just over three years ago
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um and although the real feeling of it
isn’t
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there because i sleep really well and so
does he
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you know the actual um
reminders of the experience are still
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quite real so
that five hours was one time only okay
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that was
one night of five hours every other
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prior night
it would have been every couple of hours
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or every hour or every three so that was
a one
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night and that’s why i know that because
it was so relevant
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it was like this one like yay five hours
but that also means he only ever got
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five hours
and that’s why it’s still quite real and
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raw because
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you know whatever works for family is
fine there’s never a problem unless
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there’s a problem
but now on reflection that is not
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healthy beyond the age in which a child
needs to be fed
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sort of regularly in the night in other
words you know little babies obviously
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need to wake up let’s say every
three hours or four hours feeding but he
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was not a little baby anymore you know
he was
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developmentally mature enough to have
longer chunks of sleep night after night
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you know consecutive nights and he
didn’t so i do recall
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you know very very kind of clearly the
physical
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drain it has on me and him and my
husband
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um i lived in a place called alzaina in
abu dhabi which is right under the
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flight path and there’s an
a380 that goes over at 2 a.m every
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morning and i know i used to hear that
plane
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pretty much every night so
that’s pretty real still three years
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later i know that
you know very much um for sure
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um i remember driving down the highway
we live
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so our zayn is out of the city uh raja
beaches by the airport in abu dhabi so
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anyone who
knows the geography and i used to go to
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a class with him in the city
and i used to drive on that particular
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road and then suddenly look around and
realize
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i’ve got 30k down the road and can’t
quite remember
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the starting point and where i’ve got to
now you know that sort of dazed
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feeling um and
i remember going to a shop to buy some
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new trousers
banana republic and trying on the size
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and the lady saying to me these are way
too big for you
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i’d lost more weight i didn’t even
recognize myself because i was so
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kind of a shell of myself that i
couldn’t believe that she was offering
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me a
you know small pair just saying thank
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you that was great but you know
because i was just so depleted
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um breastfeeding will see uses up a lot
of calories
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um but i wasn’t really taking
care of myself in other areas such that
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i was
my best my best self so um
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yeah i do remember it being a tough
time um obviously lucky for us
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we’re out the other side um but there is
one
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sort of element that i do keep um as a
reminder of our journey and
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on my desktop on my computer
my um
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screensaver is a picture of my son when
he started nursery he’s about
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just over 18 months old and he sat on
this little bench
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in the playground of nursery and he
looks for all the world like the
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happiest little child i’ve ever seen
with these big black circles and lines
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under his eyes
and when we heard our sleep consultant
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she helped us to
work out she asked us to feel like this
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sort of
graph thing of how to um how much sleep
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he was having and he was having about
nine hours sleep at night and he should
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have been having 12.
so my little boy who’s happy who’s
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enjoying nurseries enjoying life
is three hours of sleep lit too little
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every night night after night after
night
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so the point about me keeping that
screenshot is to remind myself both of
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where we’ve come in and what we’ve
achieved and to keep me to keep me
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wanting to help others yeah but also to
sort of show me that even if a child’s
0:11:44.640,0:11:47.760
super happy and super jolly and super
you know enjoying life doesn’t
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necessarily mean to say
they’re as well rested as they could be
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yeah sure and i think that’s really um
empowering now for you because
0:11:57.839,0:12:01.040
knowing how much of a difference it’s
made to your life and knowing that you
0:12:01.040,0:12:07.519
can give that to other families as well
is pretty a pretty incredible feeling
0:12:07.519,0:12:11.200
yeah that must have impacted you quite a
lot mentally
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surely the that sleep deprivation and
that sort of days and the the exhaustion
0:12:16.959,0:12:19.440
that you feel because you don’t get
enough sleep
0:12:19.440,0:12:23.200
as well as then having a newborn baby to
look after you you sort of mentioned
0:12:23.200,0:12:26.160
something that really
resonated really strongly with me
0:12:26.160,0:12:29.040
because you said that you were really
healthy during your pregnancy you really
0:12:29.040,0:12:31.680
focused on staying healthy and looked
after yourself
0:12:31.680,0:12:34.720
but you never looked past your pregnancy
and it’s the same
0:12:34.720,0:12:38.079
i did exactly the same and maybe that’s
part of the joy
0:12:38.079,0:12:43.680
of not knowing is actually part of being
able to enjoy that pregnancy
0:12:43.680,0:12:47.839
but i i had the same feeling where you
have been a newborn and this
0:12:47.839,0:12:50.959
that learning curve is so steep and any
new mom will
0:12:50.959,0:12:55.200
sort of relate to that because that
learning curve is so incredibly steep in
0:12:55.200,0:12:59.200
especially in those early months but
that coupled with the lack of sleep must
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have been
pretty challenging altogether
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yeah i mean we we
um were quite lucky at the very start
0:13:10.639,0:13:15.360
as in the first uh newborn phase the
first 12 weeks
0:13:15.360,0:13:19.120
i mean he was co-sleeping with us and as
in three of us in a bed
0:13:19.120,0:13:22.399
um and my husband still managed to get
up and go to work every day so you know
0:13:22.399,0:13:26.880
that part i think was
was sort of okay and you know the flush
0:13:26.880,0:13:31.040
of love and i
i was lucky i didn’t really have any
0:13:31.040,0:13:35.440
baby blues or pnd
so you know i was really able to enjoy
0:13:35.440,0:13:39.360
and appreciate
him for the first few weeks
0:13:39.360,0:13:42.639
we didn’t have a lot of challenges i had
my parents staying with me as well so
0:13:42.639,0:13:45.040
there were times during the day where i
could definitely
0:13:45.040,0:13:49.680
catch up on that um joseph was always
being held by someone which
0:13:49.680,0:13:54.079
is good and bad um but you know at the
time it was fine
0:13:54.079,0:13:57.839
there’s two things i can say about that
though the first thing is
0:13:57.839,0:14:03.199
we went to the uk uh joseph and i to
um visit friends and family to me for me
0:14:03.199,0:14:07.760
to sort of introduce them to people
and we came back and my husband said
0:14:07.760,0:14:10.000
what happened
it’s like you broke him while we went on
0:14:10.000,0:14:13.040
holiday well you went on holidays like a
different child i’d come home with
0:14:13.040,0:14:15.600
because
he had gone from sleeping quite well to
0:14:15.600,0:14:18.480
no longer sleeping
at all well and that was basically the
0:14:18.480,0:14:21.920
four-month sleep regression unbeknownst
to us at the time
0:14:21.920,0:14:24.959
the second thing was i was diagnosed
with ptsd
0:14:24.959,0:14:30.560
at about he was like 10 or 11 months old
so i’d had a pretty traumatic birth and
0:14:30.560,0:14:33.360
aft
and so the first three months of the of
0:14:33.360,0:14:36.079
his life where i was in his flushing
period
0:14:36.079,0:14:39.600
was great but then once his sleep
deteriorated
0:14:39.600,0:14:44.800
my ptsd started to become more and more
noticeable particularly to my husband
0:14:44.800,0:14:48.240
because my sleep was deteriorated of
course and
0:14:48.240,0:14:52.560
i was just really quite i mean i
mentioned about being a child of my
0:14:52.560,0:14:57.120
former self just almost zombie like
in the way that i would just do things
0:14:57.120,0:14:59.920
um
and it wasn’t that i wasn’t able to be
0:14:59.920,0:15:04.240
loving and giving to my son
but what i’m saying is my husband was
0:15:04.240,0:15:09.199
telling me you are not you
you are not the you that
0:15:09.199,0:15:12.800
we know and and the best version of you
and
0:15:12.800,0:15:17.279
you know what i do want parents to know
and understand is that
0:15:17.279,0:15:20.880
we don’t get a badge for being sleep
deprived when i’m getting extra
0:15:20.880,0:15:25.120
gold star or something else to say you
know you’ve suffered there for your
0:15:25.120,0:15:28.720
better parent or or a parent that you
know
0:15:28.720,0:15:32.399
needs extra acknowledgement we all do
the best job that we can do
0:15:32.399,0:15:38.480
but we can never do the most optimal
if we sleep deprived because we
0:15:38.480,0:15:41.680
obviously
as a you know as an individual are
0:15:41.680,0:15:47.839
ourselves therefore depleted
and so consequently we’re short-tempered
0:15:47.839,0:15:51.600
we don’t make good choices
no we don’t feel like we’re able to
0:15:51.600,0:15:56.639
engage in the way that we
would like to do or we’d like to so um
0:15:56.639,0:15:59.680
you know it’s it’s such a fundamental
element
0:15:59.680,0:16:05.839
so i really feel like sometimes moms
get this sort of message that oh it’s
0:16:05.839,0:16:08.720
very natural for children to wake up in
the night it’s very normal for children
0:16:08.720,0:16:11.120
to want to be near you or it’s very
normal for
0:16:11.120,0:16:15.279
you know your baby to need to feed and
it is until
0:16:15.279,0:16:18.880
you realize that it’s very normal to
sleep
0:16:18.880,0:16:23.360
you know over and above everything or in
addition to everything
0:16:23.360,0:16:27.759
it’s a basic human need shelter food and
sleep okay they are
0:16:27.759,0:16:31.920
part of a trigraph um put one to one
side
0:16:31.920,0:16:35.519
okay the shelter may still be there um
the food may still be there but you’ll
0:16:35.519,0:16:39.920
you know operate in a
30 reduced capacity uh which is
0:16:39.920,0:16:44.880
obviously significant
so you know it does it does
0:16:44.880,0:16:48.480
it does say something if we’re willing
to put that a third of our basic human
0:16:48.480,0:16:52.959
need to one side
and kind of ignore it thinking that you
0:16:52.959,0:16:56.160
know it’ll all be fine
it really isn’t necessarily the case at
0:16:56.160,0:16:58.880
all yeah and i agree with that because i
think
0:16:58.880,0:17:03.040
it’s so important to remember that
actually being your best self means that
0:17:03.040,0:17:07.360
you’re a better parent
to your child and i know that i wasn’t
0:17:07.360,0:17:10.079
very good with the sort of interrupted
sleep
0:17:10.079,0:17:14.799
um and so i knew that was something that
i needed to address because i wanted to
0:17:14.799,0:17:18.000
be a better parent during the day to my
daughter because for me
0:17:18.000,0:17:22.400
staying patient was very challenging
having had very little sleep
0:17:22.400,0:17:28.960
and i i mean i would like to
i guess it is you mentioned that it is
0:17:28.960,0:17:32.320
normal in some circumstances
is that the first sort of four months
0:17:32.320,0:17:37.760
where they say the fourth trimester
is that yeah i mean you can either you
0:17:37.760,0:17:39.840
can
you can either be blessed with a very
0:17:39.840,0:17:44.880
sleepy newborn or you can be
blessed with a very not sleepy newborn
0:17:44.880,0:17:47.520
and
i know both are a blessing obviously i
0:17:47.520,0:17:52.080
remember i did a
present a sort of little workshop at
0:17:52.080,0:17:56.559
um a shop called mammy’s in i’ll see
more in abu dhabi i’ll just give them a
0:17:56.559,0:18:01.120
small shout out because it’s a it’s not
a change store it’s a you know locally
0:18:01.120,0:18:03.440
run
shop and um this lady came in with a
0:18:03.440,0:18:07.919
seven week old baby and she said
she’s so happy she’s so you know easy
0:18:07.919,0:18:11.200
going um
but she doesn’t sleep and this was about
0:18:11.200,0:18:14.080
one o’clock in the afternoon and this
little girl woke up at seven o’clock
0:18:14.080,0:18:17.679
that morning and had not slept
okay now newborn babies of that age
0:18:17.679,0:18:21.520
should be asleep about every hour
and i was looking at this child thinking
0:18:21.520,0:18:26.160
wow she was happy and she was smiling
and she was the sweetest little thing
0:18:26.160,0:18:29.600
you know she wasn’t screaming the house
stand and i think sometimes because
0:18:29.600,0:18:34.320
there’s no obvious reaction in some
situations and if your baby’s crying you
0:18:34.320,0:18:36.480
think well i’ve got to do something to
resolve this and
0:18:36.480,0:18:39.760
there’s something going on there’s
something that needs to be fixed or
0:18:39.760,0:18:43.520
helped in some way but when your baby
isn’t
0:18:43.520,0:18:48.799
maybe you’re not seeing that there is um
something going on there shouldn’t be of
0:18:48.799,0:18:51.120
course particularly if you’re a new
parent
0:18:51.120,0:18:56.480
or your busy parent you know this is
this is part and parcel of life isn’t it
0:18:56.480,0:19:00.640
you know we get sort of dragged into
being and doing other things this was
0:19:00.640,0:19:03.039
also a working mom she was a teacher so
she
0:19:03.039,0:19:09.360
it was a very um busy
uh and sort of reasonably stressful job
0:19:09.360,0:19:14.960
um the point being that
even if we’re sleep deprived it may not
0:19:14.960,0:19:18.160
be there outwardly and it wasn’t with
this little baby but
0:19:18.160,0:19:20.960
it still doesn’t mean to say it’s
something that she didn’t need she
0:19:20.960,0:19:24.559
definitely didn’t need it
he just wasn’t you know you know in the
0:19:24.559,0:19:30.240
mum’s face as it were
um and you know we
0:19:30.240,0:19:34.400
we can operate at less than perfect
capacity
0:19:34.400,0:19:38.400
but still operate you know that that’s
the reality it becomes a new normal
0:19:38.400,0:19:42.320
i had created a new normal for myself my
son had a normal he didn’t know any
0:19:42.320,0:19:46.000
different obviously
um but like you say about patience you
0:19:46.000,0:19:48.240
know was i as patient as i could be was
like
0:19:48.240,0:19:52.480
you know being as as enthusiastic about
doing
0:19:52.480,0:19:56.080
certain things with him as i could be um
and for me
0:19:56.080,0:19:59.840
you know just as a personal experience
because we didn’t sleep for two and a
0:19:59.840,0:20:03.840
half years that’s why
i’m a mum of only one child now that
0:20:03.840,0:20:06.080
also might seem quite radical to a lot
of people
0:20:06.080,0:20:11.200
but i was 39 i was always going to be
um you know on the cusp of maybe would
0:20:11.200,0:20:15.520
it be time to fit another child in
but more importantly there was no way i
0:20:15.520,0:20:19.280
was going to go
um ahead and get pregnant and be sleep
0:20:19.280,0:20:22.320
deprived
deal with a toddler and have a baby and
0:20:22.320,0:20:25.440
be sleep deprived you know i just
couldn’t even imagine
0:20:25.440,0:20:29.760
taking that on um and so by the time we
sleep trained joseph
0:20:29.760,0:20:32.880
and um came out the other side i mean
it’s not like
0:20:32.880,0:20:36.480
a week after we sleep trending we’re
like okay let’s go again
0:20:36.480,0:20:41.360
you know by the time it all sets down
you know basically it was too late so
0:20:41.360,0:20:46.000
for me you know you’re i’m never going
to get that opportunity back it’s never
0:20:46.000,0:20:48.559
going to be a position
i’m going to be in again want to think
0:20:48.559,0:20:52.240
oh you know we’ve now got time to i’m 45
now so
0:20:52.240,0:20:56.559
you know it will it is a living regret
to have not
0:20:56.559,0:20:59.919
addressed our circumstances sooner
knowing that
0:20:59.919,0:21:03.120
maybe i would have been being mum to
more than one child now
0:21:03.120,0:21:07.120
but being able to gift that back to
another mother
0:21:07.120,0:21:10.880
and hopefully allow some moms to realize
that it’s
0:21:10.880,0:21:16.080
it’s okay to notice that sleep is
is something that should be allowed as a
0:21:16.080,0:21:22.080
mom i think like you say
sometimes in society we talk about how
0:21:22.080,0:21:25.360
we are the sort of we’re giving up so
much and that’s
0:21:25.360,0:21:29.840
something that’s commended i guess right
and i think it’s okay to say like look
0:21:29.840,0:21:32.960
sleep
is needed for you and your baby and
0:21:32.960,0:21:37.360
actually it’s something that we can
we can all strive towards and i think
0:21:37.360,0:21:40.720
this just brings me
i want to go back a few steps in a
0:21:40.720,0:21:44.720
second but this just brings me back
to just mentioning here that sleep
0:21:44.720,0:21:51.120
training doesn’t necessarily mean
cry out yeah so there’s a lot of
0:21:51.120,0:21:54.960
i think training i think is bit of a
taboo subject in certain circles or in
0:21:54.960,0:22:00.960
certain groups or forums or
you know um cultures even there’s a lot
0:22:00.960,0:22:04.000
of
controversy as well as anything else and
0:22:04.000,0:22:09.440
you know parenting
is an emotive subject and people have
0:22:09.440,0:22:14.880
got a lot of opinions okay
i don’t have any agenda whatsoever that
0:22:14.880,0:22:17.760
i have no interest
in trying to tell people that they
0:22:17.760,0:22:19.679
should do something if they’re not
interested in
0:22:19.679,0:22:23.039
you know making that change whatever’s
not a problem in your home
0:22:23.039,0:22:26.880
is not a problem in your home okay it’s
only when it is a problem that
0:22:26.880,0:22:30.960
you the consideration of hiring a sleep
consultant should be there
0:22:30.960,0:22:37.679
but it is not necessarily that
there’s a um um
0:22:37.679,0:22:44.240
a need for the baby to cry okay children
will get upset if um
0:22:44.240,0:22:49.840
they’re tired and um they
have something difficult to deal with
0:22:49.840,0:22:52.799
okay
and making a change in the life of any
0:22:52.799,0:22:55.919
human being can often be perceived by
that
0:22:55.919,0:22:59.840
that human being is difficult um the
reality is cry
0:22:59.840,0:23:06.720
out which is also probably
one of the most if not the most
0:23:06.720,0:23:09.760
well used method of sleep training if
you can call it
0:23:09.760,0:23:13.360
training is basically when you put your
child to bed and you leave the room and
0:23:13.360,0:23:16.559
you don’t go back
yeah okay there’s no returning to
0:23:16.559,0:23:20.720
comfort or anything
of any every contact nature until the
0:23:20.720,0:23:23.760
next morning
okay now to a lot of people that might
0:23:23.760,0:23:29.200
sound quite radical
but the other end of the spectrum is
0:23:29.200,0:23:35.440
pre pre um internet pre-social media
pre google probably most families will
0:23:35.440,0:23:40.320
cry out families
or a version of you know i have i’m fli
0:23:40.320,0:23:42.720
i’d say i’m 45 so i have a lot of
friends
0:23:42.720,0:23:45.919
from childhood who had their babies in
their 20s
0:23:45.919,0:23:50.720
and believe me when i say those are
working mothers who had
0:23:50.720,0:23:54.960
husband a home to run um food to put on
the table laundry to do they didn’t have
0:23:54.960,0:23:57.600
helpers we’re
talking about uk based people they don’t
0:23:57.600,0:24:00.240
have nannies
some of them don’t even have families
0:24:00.240,0:24:03.440
living nearby to help them
when their babies were put to bed at
0:24:03.440,0:24:07.200
night they were put to bed upstairs
they went downstairs they had to get on
0:24:07.200,0:24:09.679
with the chores you know spend have a
relationship
0:24:09.679,0:24:12.799
do whatever they needed to they weren’t
sat inside their children’s door on the
0:24:12.799,0:24:17.360
landing
or holding their hand or you know doing
0:24:17.360,0:24:20.559
all the extra things that we’re doing
now i’m not saying that
0:24:20.559,0:24:23.600
they were you know purists quite out in
terms of
0:24:23.600,0:24:27.520
didn’t go back in the room for 12 hours
but they they could only respond based
0:24:27.520,0:24:32.240
on
um their available time in that that
0:24:32.240,0:24:36.000
at that point in their life and those
children are all fine
0:24:36.000,0:24:39.840
okay there is nothing wrong with those
children they’re not emotionally scarred
0:24:39.840,0:24:43.039
first they don’t remember it by the way
children don’t remember it
0:24:43.039,0:24:45.279
the parents aren’t particularly
emotionally scarred because i’ve spoken
0:24:45.279,0:24:48.480
to them about this at length
but you know it was all that was being
0:24:48.480,0:24:52.640
done then we
they didn’t have any influential
0:24:52.640,0:24:55.840
elements so
since we’ve got a world in which
0:24:55.840,0:24:59.600
technology is
right there in front of us and there is
0:24:59.600,0:25:04.000
something to back up
any opinion or any viewpoint or any
0:25:04.000,0:25:08.480
um style that you like if you if you
google attachment parenting of course
0:25:08.480,0:25:10.960
there’s pros and cons but
if you want the pros you’ll just seek
0:25:10.960,0:25:14.400
out the pros which is what i did
you know if you only want to find
0:25:14.400,0:25:19.200
something to back up flat earth
then it’s going to be there okay so what
0:25:19.200,0:25:24.080
what needs to be born in mind is there
is a way that suits you
0:25:24.080,0:25:28.559
you just need to sleep that way out um
but crying is not harmful to babies
0:25:28.559,0:25:32.320
babies
are born to cry essentially
0:25:32.320,0:25:36.640
um they do cry uh on average babies cry
three hours a day
0:25:36.640,0:25:42.080
you know that’s a factual average um
colic babies cry three hours a day
0:25:42.080,0:25:45.760
three days a week for three weeks okay
so
0:25:45.760,0:25:49.520
if the crying was so harmful there will
be very very um
0:25:49.520,0:25:53.679
you know doctors concerned about colic
babies well they’re concerned but
0:25:53.679,0:25:55.840
they’re not
concerned about the crying it’s not the
0:25:55.840,0:25:58.640
crying that concerns them it’s the why
have they got colic
0:25:58.640,0:26:04.640
you know as an issue and since colic
is not actually definable apart from the
0:26:04.640,0:26:06.960
amount of crying
you know what they what doctors don’t
0:26:06.960,0:26:11.039
know is what is colic um
they’re not spending a lot of time
0:26:11.039,0:26:13.919
worrying about the actual calling about
the crying they’re actually trying to
0:26:13.919,0:26:16.720
figure out what’s causing the crimes the
crime is like the output
0:26:16.720,0:26:21.360
it’s not really the issue so i don’t
want people to think that all sleep
0:26:21.360,0:26:25.600
training is about crying um
but what i do want people to recognize
0:26:25.600,0:26:28.640
and realize is that crying out is just
one way
0:26:28.640,0:26:34.960
and it’s really um
moved away from popularity since we’ve
0:26:34.960,0:26:40.400
had you know as i say the access of
technology um readily available to us
0:26:40.400,0:26:43.840
nothing wrong with it if that’s what
people want to do it’s not what i use
0:26:43.840,0:26:47.200
because my view is if you want quiet out
you don’t need a sleep consultant you
0:26:47.200,0:26:51.440
just need to shut the door
and walk away however
0:26:51.440,0:26:55.039
what i also say to parents is you know
try to recognize that crying is very
0:26:55.039,0:26:58.080
normal for babies and they have no
problem doing it we don’t love to hear
0:26:58.080,0:27:00.559
it
yeah maybe we have no problem doing it i
0:27:00.559,0:27:02.720
guess it’s just their way of
communication right
0:27:02.720,0:27:06.080
until they can actually vocalize what
they’re thinking
0:27:06.080,0:27:09.919
which is quite far into it’s what two
and a half
0:27:09.919,0:27:13.600
three years old by they can when they
can actually truly communicate
0:27:13.600,0:27:17.520
um so it’s just their way of
communication and i think when you
0:27:17.520,0:27:20.880
i think it took me a while to come to
terms with that because i think as a
0:27:20.880,0:27:24.320
mother it really sort of
as soon as you hear your child crying
0:27:24.320,0:27:27.200
you just want to do something to stop
them from crying
0:27:27.200,0:27:30.960
um yeah but it’s it’s a survival
instinct isn’t it is to protect your
0:27:30.960,0:27:35.360
baby but we’re no longer in that kind of
environment where we need to protect
0:27:35.360,0:27:38.559
them instantly
or at least respond to every cry because
0:27:38.559,0:27:42.559
it’s just their way of communication
exactly i mean look there’s a number of
0:27:42.559,0:27:45.840
elements if you’re breastfeeding and
your baby’s really new it’s quite a
0:27:45.840,0:27:49.120
hormonal thing you know if you cries
if your baby cries so your breast milk
0:27:49.120,0:27:52.799
can you know come in okay i remember i
was in a car with a friend
0:27:52.799,0:27:55.840
and our babies were born within two
weeks of each other my baby cried and
0:27:55.840,0:27:59.760
her milk came in
i mean it was literally primeval in
0:27:59.760,0:28:02.720
sense of
the actual reactions in your body but of
0:28:02.720,0:28:06.080
course when your milk comes
there’s a hormonal change in you and so
0:28:06.080,0:28:10.159
you feel it so you think
yeah i must react that is essentially a
0:28:10.159,0:28:12.159
human nature element like you say that
the
0:28:12.159,0:28:16.559
survival part well we’re no longer
living in caves so it doesn’t really
0:28:16.559,0:28:19.200
apply
as you say it’s communication before
0:28:19.200,0:28:22.640
they can speak it’s still
used beyond the time in which they can
0:28:22.640,0:28:24.640
speak as their main method of
communication
0:28:24.640,0:28:27.840
because of course it’s familiar it’s
comfortable
0:28:27.840,0:28:32.159
it’s natural it’s never about the crying
though it’s about
0:28:32.159,0:28:35.440
um something else and the crying is like
the output
0:28:35.440,0:28:40.640
the thing i think that is the problem
for us now as parents is one society you
0:28:40.640,0:28:43.760
hear a crying baby you think well why
isn’t that parent
0:28:43.760,0:28:47.279
making that not you know making that
stop making them
0:28:47.279,0:28:50.880
do something about that and the second
thing as adults
0:28:50.880,0:28:55.200
we only cry usually if there’s something
very seriously wrong
0:28:55.200,0:28:58.559
and often when we’re sad babies don’t
cry when they’re sad
0:28:58.559,0:29:01.919
babies aren’t really sad so if you think
about it
0:29:01.919,0:29:05.600
um if my son will cry and tell me he’s
happy at the same time
0:29:05.600,0:29:09.679
he’s not sad therefore he’s crying so
i’m not my job is not to
0:29:09.679,0:29:13.679
therefore make him happy or worry about
the fact he’s sad
0:29:13.679,0:29:17.200
but because as adults we typically cry
when we’re sad
0:29:17.200,0:29:21.600
we relate crying to sadness so we think
oh my gosh my baby sad i need to do
0:29:21.600,0:29:25.679
something to make them not sad
right likelihood is they’re not sad
0:29:25.679,0:29:30.080
though it’s not about sadness and that’s
very challenging to wrap your head
0:29:30.080,0:29:34.240
around like you said smile you know it
does take a while to reconcile
0:29:34.240,0:29:38.000
um it’s it’s about figuring out why are
they crying
0:29:38.000,0:29:44.159
and what can i do to help them with that
that’s what sleep training identifies
0:29:44.159,0:29:47.679
with parents okay let’s
let’s figure out what this crying is
0:29:47.679,0:29:51.679
about
and then deal with that not to be too
0:29:51.679,0:29:55.600
bogged down in the crying
the other thing to say about crying and
0:29:55.600,0:29:58.240
you know
i’m quite passionate about this because
0:29:58.240,0:30:03.440
babies do need to cry often
um because crying forms a number of
0:30:03.440,0:30:07.840
different types of
um serves a number of different types of
0:30:07.840,0:30:10.000
elements for babies apart from
communication
0:30:10.000,0:30:15.120
it’s um also there are toxins in tears
so it’s like an offloading of toxins
0:30:15.120,0:30:19.360
it’s also pent-up frustration or pent-up
emotion so when you hear about terrible
0:30:19.360,0:30:23.760
twos just as an example
terrible twos i think two-year-olds get
0:30:23.760,0:30:27.679
a really bad rap because all you hear is
oh they had a meltdown here or they lost
0:30:27.679,0:30:32.399
their mind over a blue cup or all their
my child just can’t um you know do
0:30:32.399,0:30:35.200
anything without throwing themselves on
the floor and having a tantrum
0:30:35.200,0:30:38.960
the thing about when they turn to is
they start to realize
0:30:38.960,0:30:42.320
the hierarchy of the world and they
start to become aware
0:30:42.320,0:30:48.640
of their position but they also
um have to sort of get to an age where
0:30:48.640,0:30:51.919
they are taking on
more and the problem is is that they may
0:30:51.919,0:30:54.000
have
a number of different experiences
0:30:54.000,0:30:57.600
throughout the day that they
it’s new to them and that they have to
0:30:57.600,0:31:01.200
manage so when they
lose their mind because you gave them
0:31:01.200,0:31:04.240
the blue cup they haven’t lost their
mind over the blue cup they’ve had
0:31:04.240,0:31:08.000
five previous experiences particularly
if they’re in daycare or nursery
0:31:08.000,0:31:11.120
you know they were playing with a toy
quite hard please someone took it away
0:31:11.120,0:31:14.080
they said they spoke to the helper and
said you know i’m upset and help said
0:31:14.080,0:31:18.159
don’t worry here’s another toy what
you’ve invalidated their feelings you
0:31:18.159,0:31:22.640
gave them a sandwich
they wanted a cracker you know but they
0:31:22.640,0:31:24.559
can’t
communicate they can’t tell you what
0:31:24.559,0:31:27.039
they want to eat you know they were
being fed
0:31:27.039,0:31:29.760
all the time through our choice they
wanted to wear a red t-shirt you gave
0:31:29.760,0:31:32.480
them a blue
by the time they’ve got to you know
0:31:32.480,0:31:35.200
having a blue cup when they needed a
green card
0:31:35.200,0:31:39.600
it isn’t just that it’s all the things
that went before them and so for them
0:31:39.600,0:31:43.039
they need to let it out you’ll see
toddlers
0:31:43.039,0:31:47.440
cry and lose their mind and 10 minutes
later be happy and you know cheerful and
0:31:47.440,0:31:51.039
running around the places so that never
happened that’s an offloading of the
0:31:51.039,0:31:55.760
toxins of all of the pressure
of the previous experiences and it’s
0:31:55.760,0:31:59.440
terrible too because
they’re experiencing the world at two in
0:31:59.440,0:32:02.240
a different way
to previously then they get through it
0:32:02.240,0:32:05.279
and they move on to the next
developmental stage which
0:32:05.279,0:32:09.440
obviously creates its own challenges but
for them crying is a way
0:32:09.440,0:32:14.880
to release that pressure valve and then
go about their day it is not i mean we
0:32:14.880,0:32:17.840
don’t want our child breaking down in
the middle of careful obviously but
0:32:17.840,0:32:21.360
apart from that they need to work
through it otherwise it’s just going to
0:32:21.360,0:32:25.519
come rage and you know that’s that’s not
better
0:32:25.519,0:32:30.320
sure and i guess then the crying when
they do when you are adjusting
0:32:30.320,0:32:35.120
their routine is similar because they
are just communicating that there’s a
0:32:35.120,0:32:39.600
change
and they’re trying to understand the
0:32:39.600,0:32:45.279
change and maybe
new neural pathways that need to be
0:32:45.279,0:32:49.279
formed
exactly i mean this the way i explain it
0:32:49.279,0:32:52.640
to parents right now
in the last three months especially uae
0:32:52.640,0:32:56.640
parents in the last three months
somebody has decided that we’re not
0:32:56.640,0:33:00.240
allowed to leave our house
okay now on the day that that happened i
0:33:00.240,0:33:03.039
believe me when i say i was not the
happiest person i’ve ever been
0:33:03.039,0:33:06.159
okay because as soon as someone tells me
that i can’t do something
0:33:06.159,0:33:09.519
i absolutely want to do the thing that
they could tell me i cannot do
0:33:09.519,0:33:12.559
that’s my personality but it’s not
really that unusual
0:33:12.559,0:33:16.080
for human beings we do not like change
we
0:33:16.080,0:33:20.559
are predisposed to resist change even if
change is good for us
0:33:20.559,0:33:24.320
bear in mind that they were making that
change for the betterment of or for the
0:33:24.320,0:33:28.080
protection of us okay
so you cannot leave your house because
0:33:28.080,0:33:31.600
there’s a virus and you might get sick
wow i really want to leave my house well
0:33:31.600,0:33:34.559
i mean you said not even logical is it
doesn’t make any sense to
0:33:34.559,0:33:39.200
want to do that however so protesting
change so i had like a week where i was
0:33:39.200,0:33:42.720
eating chocolate every night and
you know is it one o’clock yeah and all
0:33:42.720,0:33:47.600
that of that kind of thing
and then i was like okay i see where
0:33:47.600,0:33:50.399
this is gone you know
lucky me i live in the uae they’re
0:33:50.399,0:33:53.120
protecting us you know they’re very
thoughtful about it
0:33:53.120,0:33:58.080
etc came out the other side pretty happy
with the outcome
0:33:58.080,0:34:02.960
went through that period of total
quarantine the day they decided to
0:34:02.960,0:34:06.640
uh you know relax the quarantine i
couldn’t have been happier okay
0:34:06.640,0:34:10.159
it’s the same for children i’ve decided
that you’re going to fall asleep in a
0:34:10.159,0:34:12.720
different way
and i’m not going to consult with you
0:34:12.720,0:34:14.960
about it and i’m not going to discuss it
with you
0:34:14.960,0:34:18.960
and i am not going to you know even have
your opinion on it i’m just going to do
0:34:18.960,0:34:21.520
it to you
and guess what you’re gonna put up with
0:34:21.520,0:34:26.639
it obviously if you’re
four months six months two years old six
0:34:26.639,0:34:29.119
years old
for you that’s a change that’s imposed
0:34:29.119,0:34:32.800
upon you therefore it’s quite natural to
push it back against that change
0:34:32.800,0:34:38.560
and children as a natural reaction to
things will cry okay but it’s measured
0:34:38.560,0:34:42.159
it’s it’s
it i am tired i just want to go to sleep
0:34:42.159,0:34:44.399
and today you’re going to do something
different than you’ve done
0:34:44.399,0:34:51.359
100 of my life why
it’s about navigating what
0:34:51.359,0:34:54.399
is the issue in of the moment helping
them
0:34:54.399,0:35:00.160
in to manage that feeling
knowing that it’s not the journey it’s
0:35:00.160,0:35:04.160
the outcome
that is the important part and children
0:35:04.160,0:35:09.280
are very adaptable
precisely i mean honestly it’s it’s
0:35:09.280,0:35:12.000
incredible i mean people will say to me
oh i’m really worried about getting rid
0:35:12.000,0:35:15.839
of the dummy or pacifier
and i say believe me when i say that is
0:35:15.839,0:35:18.960
an item that they could not care less
about once they sleep train
0:35:18.960,0:35:24.079
and literally i mean within 24 hours it
could it could be as quick as that
0:35:24.079,0:35:28.640
that they’ve gone from um
thinking that that is the most important
0:35:28.640,0:35:31.839
thing on the planet to not needing it
whatsoever
0:35:31.839,0:35:36.720
children are adaptable and children take
information
0:35:36.720,0:35:40.560
um based on the what their parents
deliver to them
0:35:40.560,0:35:45.119
so if you deliver this is your new bed
and um it’s really super comfortable and
0:35:45.119,0:35:47.760
you’re going to have a lovely
sleep in it that will be fine if you
0:35:47.760,0:35:50.240
deliver my goodness are you going to be
okay
0:35:50.240,0:35:52.720
we’re you’re not going to sleep very
well this bed tonight i wonder if i
0:35:52.720,0:35:55.280
should do something to compensate for
the fact that i am worried that you’re
0:35:55.280,0:35:57.599
not going to sleep for
guess what they’re not going to sleep
0:35:57.599,0:36:00.880
very well because they’ve seen their
anxiety
0:36:00.880,0:36:05.359
in you about this bed and their
immediate reaction is mummy’s not very
0:36:05.359,0:36:07.440
happy
mommy’s worried therefore i should be
0:36:07.440,0:36:11.200
worried mommy’s you know concerned
therefore i should be in concern
0:36:11.200,0:36:15.440
they read body language better than in
any other age
0:36:15.440,0:36:18.480
because if they’re not verbal they have
to communicate in other ways
0:36:18.480,0:36:21.760
so they know i hate i say it to people
they can smell it
0:36:21.760,0:36:26.079
they know there’s no doubt if you’re
common blacks they know
0:36:26.079,0:36:30.320
if you’re not calm and relaxed they know
so it’s really that you have to be
0:36:30.320,0:36:34.079
fully as a parent as a mother you have
to be really sort of
0:36:34.079,0:36:39.440
fully invested in making the change for
it to be a successful outcome
0:36:39.440,0:36:44.640
well yes and i mean yes i know what i
say to parents when they i have initial
0:36:44.640,0:36:49.359
call with everybody who
contacts me and about should i be sleep
0:36:49.359,0:36:51.280
training my child or i want to sleep
train or
0:36:51.280,0:36:55.599
however they sort of um introduction
that they make to me is
0:36:55.599,0:36:59.040
about that what’s going on and what i
say to them in that course
0:36:59.040,0:37:02.960
in the three years i’ve been doing this
and the 250 children i’ve worked with
0:37:02.960,0:37:07.440
i know exactly what based on your
child’s age is they need and i know how
0:37:07.440,0:37:10.720
to get you there
okay and i can give you information
0:37:10.720,0:37:14.960
advice support
experience i can you know really hold
0:37:14.960,0:37:18.240
your hand through the process
and make it work for you but i cannot
0:37:18.240,0:37:21.040
give you the commitment
because i am not going around the uae
0:37:21.040,0:37:24.800
putting babies to bed no i am
imparting advice and guidance and
0:37:24.800,0:37:28.240
knowledge on parents and then asking
them to follow through on that
0:37:28.240,0:37:33.040
with my support with my input but
the reality is that nine o’clock i turn
0:37:33.040,0:37:35.760
my phone off and so if their child wakes
up between 9 00
0:37:35.760,0:37:41.760
p.m and 8 a.m they are dealing with
that even though i’ve advised them yeah
0:37:41.760,0:37:45.359
so they decide
at 2am to not do what i’ve said and to
0:37:45.359,0:37:47.760
do
whatever they’ve previously done which
0:37:47.760,0:37:50.480
is not for me to tell them that they
shouldn’t
0:37:50.480,0:37:54.160
what i know there is their commitment
for change is quite low
0:37:54.160,0:37:58.160
and it’s not the time for them to embark
upon this
0:37:58.160,0:38:02.480
what that means is that you know either
they’re not ready
0:38:02.480,0:38:05.680
or they weren’t expecting it to be the
way it is
0:38:05.680,0:38:09.839
now as long as they are committed to
making the change and seeing it through
0:38:09.839,0:38:14.400
we can carry on on the next night and
the next night but genuinely
0:38:14.400,0:38:17.760
for example just to keep it really
simple if you’ve breastfed your child to
0:38:17.760,0:38:20.079
bed
every night for the last 12 months and i
0:38:20.079,0:38:22.160
say to you tonight you’re not going to
do that
0:38:22.160,0:38:27.359
and you do it normally indicates that
actually you’re probably not ready to
0:38:27.359,0:38:29.520
stop breastfeeding your child throughout
the night
0:38:29.520,0:38:32.320
and that’s totally fine you know i
wasn’t ready until my summer’s two and a
0:38:32.320,0:38:35.599
half
but what i’m saying is that i can’t make
0:38:35.599,0:38:38.880
you be committed so as long as you’re
committed i can motivate you i can
0:38:38.880,0:38:43.359
support you i can help you i can
really reassure you as i say throughout
0:38:43.359,0:38:46.640
this journey
but the commitment element as in the
0:38:46.640,0:38:49.839
starting point the conscious decision
that you want your child to fall asleep
0:38:49.839,0:38:52.480
without breastfeeding
has to come from you it’s not for me to
0:38:52.480,0:38:56.800
persuade you you should
um there’s many statistics out there
0:38:56.800,0:39:00.079
that can tell you that and that’s
you know whether or not you’ve decided
0:39:00.079,0:39:03.359
that is totally you know totally your
decision
0:39:03.359,0:39:06.960
so that um you mentioned something
really critical there
0:39:06.960,0:39:10.400
breastfeeding to sleep which is one of
the
0:39:10.400,0:39:14.960
one of the things if you are sort of
working to sleep training your child
0:39:14.960,0:39:20.079
is to move the feeding to an earlier
time in the evening
0:39:20.079,0:39:26.400
so could we just touch on um
some needs or some tips um for bedtime
0:39:26.400,0:39:29.280
that really help
get your child ready for sleep because
0:39:29.280,0:39:32.320
we all know how important it is for a
child to sleep i think
0:39:32.320,0:39:36.960
by this point i i think all parents will
know that sleep is important to a child
0:39:36.960,0:39:41.280
for their developmental sort of
well-being and just the emotional
0:39:41.280,0:39:44.079
well-being as
well because they need good sleep as
0:39:44.079,0:39:47.359
well to be able to regulate their
feelings emotions as well
0:39:47.359,0:39:53.680
and so i think we’re we’re all sort of
sold on that but sometimes it’s this
0:39:53.680,0:39:57.680
routine can have a big impact on how
your child actually falls asleep and how
0:39:57.680,0:39:59.680
well
they are able to fall asleep and then
0:39:59.680,0:40:04.480
they’re getting the timing right as well
and i know the timing obviously must be
0:40:04.480,0:40:09.119
is different for every parent and
every sort of family um and that will
0:40:09.119,0:40:12.640
depend on the age of the child as well
but i think the routine pretty much is
0:40:12.640,0:40:15.839
similar
through the sort of the age of the child
0:40:15.839,0:40:19.520
is that right
yeah i mean the thing that we you want
0:40:19.520,0:40:22.640
to um
be mindful of with regards to what a
0:40:22.640,0:40:27.119
routine is a routine
is a signpost or a signal or an
0:40:27.119,0:40:30.800
indicator to a child
that the next thing that’s going to
0:40:30.800,0:40:32.800
happen to them is they need to wind down
and go
0:40:32.800,0:40:36.000
get ready to go to sleep and by winding
i mean relax
0:40:36.000,0:40:39.599
so studies have proven that the human
brain needs to be relaxed in order to
0:40:39.599,0:40:42.079
fall asleep
so as adults if we’ve got lots of things
0:40:42.079,0:40:44.960
running through our mind you know what
we’re going to do tomorrow how today
0:40:44.960,0:40:47.440
when have we got bills to pay and all
the kinds of
0:40:47.440,0:40:50.800
elements that can take over when we’re
lying in the dark
0:40:50.800,0:40:53.520
we’re not going to fall asleep until
we’ve dealt with that you know until
0:40:53.520,0:40:56.720
we’ve
put that to one side the little babies
0:40:56.720,0:40:59.760
obviously they don’t
or oh you know children i’m talking
0:40:59.760,0:41:03.680
about a range of children
aged from let’s say 0 to 10 years old
0:41:03.680,0:41:07.680
they don’t obviously have those concerns
but somewhere in amongst those age
0:41:07.680,0:41:10.560
ranges there’s different types of
anxieties let’s say
0:41:10.560,0:41:14.560
that can prevent sleep yeah depending on
the age will be a different
0:41:14.560,0:41:18.640
different type of concern that’s going
on in their mind
0:41:18.640,0:41:21.920
if you’ve got a routine what you’re
doing is you’re signposting to the child
0:41:21.920,0:41:25.839
okay
along this path then one of the things
0:41:25.839,0:41:27.760
that’s going to happen is you’re going
to be put into bed and
0:41:27.760,0:41:31.200
that’s where sleep happens when you’ve
got a child let’s say
0:41:31.200,0:41:34.640
between zero and five years old in other
words newborn and five years old
0:41:34.640,0:41:38.000
the ability to explain to them what
sleep really means
0:41:38.000,0:41:44.160
is pretty much nil as in
when i talk to you about sleep i’m not
0:41:44.160,0:41:46.160
gonna
assume but i’m gonna just give you a
0:41:46.160,0:41:51.200
best guess what you probably think is
lay down in bed shut eyes be still
0:41:51.200,0:41:55.599
it’s dark it happens okay that’s pretty
much what happens to an adult
0:41:55.599,0:41:59.040
children don’t even know they need to
shut their eyes
0:41:59.040,0:42:04.640
all children who are young
will lay there with their eyes open
0:42:04.640,0:42:08.000
until just before they fall asleep
they don’t even know they have to shut
0:42:08.000,0:42:10.720
their eyes in order to go to sleep so
fundamentally
0:42:10.720,0:42:14.640
children don’t understand sleep okay so
if you if you think of it in those terms
0:42:14.640,0:42:21.119
they are not you know on a
chips are dying let’s say so the routine
0:42:21.119,0:42:26.880
helps them to start to recognize
i have a bath i get dressed you know
0:42:26.880,0:42:30.880
somebody reads me a story
we have a cuddle i go into bed that gets
0:42:30.880,0:42:34.720
repeated and it happens at time
time when i’m tired and then the next
0:42:34.720,0:42:38.880
thing is
is sleep so in terms of routine you
0:42:38.880,0:42:43.680
cannot underestimate the value the
importance the
0:42:43.680,0:42:47.760
you know element that will support your
child into learning that
0:42:47.760,0:42:54.640
that winding down and relaxing and and
um sleep coming next is the
0:42:54.640,0:42:58.800
the stage of that the next stage of that
um so routines
0:42:58.800,0:43:02.160
dark rooms please don’t underestimate
the power of
0:43:02.160,0:43:05.599
a crack of daylight coming in through
the tiny little bit of curtain
0:43:05.599,0:43:11.520
um i since covet
i um work virtually prior to covered i
0:43:11.520,0:43:14.560
would go to see people at home and when
i see them at home i’d say okay let’s
0:43:14.560,0:43:18.400
shut the curtains i’d be there during
the day usually not always
0:43:18.400,0:43:23.359
okay um those are not blackout cutters
there is too much light coming in and
0:43:23.359,0:43:28.800
it’s really easy to underestimate
the power of that so dark room cool room
0:43:28.800,0:43:32.160
again a lot of parents get very alarmed
when i tell them
0:43:32.160,0:43:38.000
that studies have shown that the optimal
sleeping temperature for human beings
0:43:38.000,0:43:43.359
is 16 to 18 degrees c uh most people’s
eyes go out on stalks particularly my
0:43:43.359,0:43:47.760
clients who are
middle eastern because 16 3c is like
0:43:47.760,0:43:51.280
winter woolies so you and i that’s a
long
0:43:51.280,0:43:55.839
summer’s day right
0:43:56.480,0:44:00.160
um and the way that i explain that is
layers on the body
0:44:00.160,0:44:03.520
but a cool room i’m not talking about
exposed splash and
0:44:03.520,0:44:07.359
and 16 degrees but what i am saying is
that cool rooms
0:44:07.359,0:44:11.839
are again going back to our car dna and
our ancestral sort of
0:44:11.839,0:44:16.000
uh cells that’s what we had the sun set
and it went cold
0:44:16.000,0:44:20.240
so we’re used to sleeping in cold we
need cold as a trigger to body to
0:44:20.240,0:44:24.160
a reduction in body temperatures i
should say to trigger us
0:44:24.160,0:44:27.359
to go from wakefulness to sleepiness so
cool room
0:44:27.359,0:44:32.480
dark room routine before bed
fundamentally you cannot underestimate
0:44:32.480,0:44:36.560
the importance of those
then in terms of feedings depending on
0:44:36.560,0:44:42.480
the age of your child
feedings will either be
0:44:42.480,0:44:49.280
timed during the night or not necessary
so from the age of six months old or
0:44:49.280,0:44:53.200
six and a half kilograms roughly six and
a half
0:44:53.200,0:44:56.400
your child is developmentally mature
enough to sleep through the night so
0:44:56.400,0:44:59.119
i’ve got three months old that sleeps
through the night if i sit through
0:44:59.119,0:45:02.400
i do mean 10 to 11 now 10 to 12 hours
sorry
0:45:02.400,0:45:08.319
i’ve got four months old five months old
and then from six months old genuinely
0:45:08.319,0:45:13.359
they should be going to bed
um let’s say seven pm
0:45:13.359,0:45:16.560
and waking up at seven a.m and no waking
in between
0:45:16.560,0:45:23.119
to get the sleep that their body needs
okay and when when some parents think oh
0:45:23.119,0:45:25.119
but my
my eight-month-old is still feeding
0:45:25.119,0:45:30.240
three times and i have a child
um who’s feeding four times a night 18
0:45:30.240,0:45:35.359
months the point is is not
to misunderstand the indication that
0:45:35.359,0:45:38.560
they may be hungry or that they’re
they’re you know waking up when they
0:45:38.560,0:45:43.760
they’re drinking well
they’re taking in the calories that they
0:45:43.760,0:45:47.680
need in in
20 in 12 hours of course 24 hours is it
0:45:47.680,0:45:52.319
12 hours that they’re awake
during the day if anyone can hear my son
0:45:52.319,0:45:55.599
in the background
um the colors that they’re taking that
0:45:55.599,0:45:58.960
they should be taking in the 12 hours of
weight but they’re taking in over 24
0:45:58.960,0:46:02.480
hours so they’re not taking
in enough during the daylight hours
0:46:02.480,0:46:06.240
basically
when they stop taking in their calories
0:46:06.240,0:46:10.000
overnight they will increase their
daytime calories so this solid intake
0:46:10.000,0:46:16.640
will be more enthusiastic their milk
will be drunk more quickly um and
0:46:16.640,0:46:21.200
um a well-rested child will always be
more enthusiastic about consuming
0:46:21.200,0:46:26.079
calories than a tired child
so when you have children that um on for
0:46:26.079,0:46:30.000
a couple of seconds and
off again especially breastfed babies or
0:46:30.000,0:46:34.400
don’t finish their meals
those are babies that are lacking in
0:46:34.400,0:46:38.319
enthusiasm for
um eating either because they’re tired
0:46:38.319,0:46:40.640
or
because as well as being tired they get
0:46:40.640,0:46:44.160
calories every night when they’re
developmentally mature enough not to
0:46:44.160,0:46:48.880
sure and i think um just one thing to
point out you mentioned
0:46:48.880,0:46:52.960
that when they sleep you mean they sleep
from when they go to bed to when they
0:46:52.960,0:46:56.400
wake up and i think the thing that i
found really challenging early on in
0:46:56.400,0:46:59.119
pregnancy was
when you do talk to other parents or
0:46:59.119,0:47:03.839
mothers about sleeping through the night
uh people have different definitions of
0:47:03.839,0:47:06.400
what sleeping through the night means so
to me
0:47:06.400,0:47:10.079
sleeping through the night men she goes
to bed and wakes up in the morning so
0:47:10.079,0:47:12.480
she sleeps
all the way through without disturbing
0:47:12.480,0:47:16.319
my sleep but to other people that’s not
necessarily
0:47:16.319,0:47:20.400
what that means and i think if you’re a
young like if you’re a mum with a young
0:47:20.400,0:47:22.720
child
and you’ve had these conversations
0:47:22.720,0:47:25.839
really do bear in mind
that you may not have the same
0:47:25.839,0:47:28.319
definition of what sleeping through the
night means
0:47:28.319,0:47:32.960
chris i say exactly and this is this is
classic one with quite a lot of people
0:47:32.960,0:47:37.200
misdefine miss define quiet same with
sleeping through the night so
0:47:37.200,0:47:41.760
what i would describe to sleeping
through the night is
0:47:41.760,0:47:45.280
and it will vary a little bit from a
within the age range but
0:47:45.280,0:47:50.960
as you say when they go to bed um
the next time they wake up is morning as
0:47:50.960,0:47:55.920
in they leave their bedroom
and they will in inevitably
0:47:55.920,0:48:00.480
like we all do wake up or have some
wakefulness periods throughout the night
0:48:00.480,0:48:03.599
but you won’t know about it because they
are
0:48:03.599,0:48:07.200
able to put themselves back to sleep
just like me when i wake up in the night
0:48:07.200,0:48:09.520
i’m not tapping my husband on the
shoulder saying can you prank me back to
0:48:09.520,0:48:12.319
sleep
it is absolutely my ownership of my
0:48:12.319,0:48:15.680
sleep
sometimes i will wake up turn over and
0:48:15.680,0:48:18.400
go straight back to sleep
sometimes i will wake up get a glass of
0:48:18.400,0:48:22.000
water go back to see sometimes i’ll wake
up maybe go to the bathroom
0:48:22.000,0:48:25.119
okay if we wake up and it lasts longer
than three minutes
0:48:25.119,0:48:28.720
we we have the ability to remember it
the next day if it’s less than three
0:48:28.720,0:48:30.880
minutes
we don’t remember it the next day so
0:48:30.880,0:48:34.079
when you wake up in the night
uh sorry when you sleep through the
0:48:34.079,0:48:36.480
night inevitably you’ve woken up a few
times
0:48:36.480,0:48:41.200
but you haven’t been awake for long
enough that it’s disrupted your sleep
0:48:41.200,0:48:44.800
and it’s the same for babies so in other
words they may still
0:48:44.800,0:48:50.880
have wakeful periods um but
they are so firstly able to put
0:48:50.880,0:48:53.440
themselves back to sleep but secondly
brief
0:48:53.440,0:48:56.880
that the parent sleep is not disrupted
and
0:48:56.880,0:48:59.920
you mentioned the the blackout blinds
and that made
0:48:59.920,0:49:03.839
a big difference to us when we introduce
the blackout blind we actually now
0:49:03.839,0:49:08.640
travel with a blackout blind
because it has such a big impact on her
0:49:08.640,0:49:10.480
sleep
especially when you’re in a different
0:49:10.480,0:49:17.839
environment as well so it’s like a
an addition to um
0:49:21.040,0:49:24.480
i don’t know the answer to this but
people always say
0:49:24.480,0:49:31.119
aren’t they afraid of the dark yeah
uh yes when they’re about
0:49:31.119,0:49:35.680
four years old that can happen um you
can’t be afraid of the dark
0:49:35.680,0:49:40.160
until you know what fear is uh you can’t
know fear unless you know
0:49:40.160,0:49:44.480
on balance the difference between being
fearful
0:49:44.480,0:49:47.599
or having something to be afraid of and
not
0:49:47.599,0:49:52.079
so you have to be cognitively aware
enough of
0:49:52.079,0:49:57.119
those elements um the other thing is is
that
0:49:57.119,0:50:04.800
we have evolved as a species um
for more years without artificial light
0:50:04.800,0:50:08.880
than with artificial light so we’ve only
had artificial light or light that we
0:50:08.880,0:50:11.200
can control in terms of turning it on
and off
0:50:11.200,0:50:15.440
for about 300 years but we’ve been in a
species for thousands and thousands and
0:50:15.440,0:50:19.920
thousands of years
and so our predominant um
0:50:19.920,0:50:26.240
preferences are those previous
sort of experiences that we develop as
0:50:26.240,0:50:32.400
as a race as a as a
mammal so if you think about it we used
0:50:32.400,0:50:36.480
to go to bed when sunset and got up when
sun rose okay and depending on where you
0:50:36.480,0:50:39.520
live in the world will depend on how
that affects you and obviously
0:50:39.520,0:50:42.960
um it depends on the time of year to
some extent as well
0:50:42.960,0:50:47.040
well little babies are very tuned into
that which means that they are perfectly
0:50:47.040,0:50:51.440
happy to sleep and pitch black
because that’s what we’ve done you know
0:50:51.440,0:50:55.680
quite literally for centuries
and likewise very tuned into sunrise and
0:50:55.680,0:50:59.520
sunset as their
triggers to be asleep and awake so if
0:50:59.520,0:51:02.800
your child falls asleep at 10 p.m
but you live in a country where the sun
0:51:02.800,0:51:06.880
sets at 6 00 p.m believe me when i say
that’s four hours that they are
0:51:06.880,0:51:11.040
should be asleep when they’re awake and
it’s not what their body
0:51:11.040,0:51:17.920
would prefer um because
and and um aligned to that when they
0:51:17.920,0:51:20.640
start waking up at six o’clock in the
morning believe me when i say that’s
0:51:20.640,0:51:23.040
what their body prefers because the sun
is rising
0:51:23.040,0:51:27.280
now if you can black out the room so
entirely
0:51:27.280,0:51:31.040
that it’s pitch black that they don’t
they can’t tell
0:51:31.040,0:51:35.119
daytime so when you know when you go to
a hotel that’s the best blackout
0:51:35.119,0:51:38.559
curtains ever
those types of black eye curtains are
0:51:38.559,0:51:43.839
the only ones to believe in
as a as a um
0:51:43.839,0:51:47.520
guarantee that there’s no light coming
in i i sent
0:51:47.520,0:51:50.720
i sent a message to a client not that
long ago and i said
0:51:50.720,0:51:54.319
is the room dart for naps and she said
yeah yeah we’ve got blackout blinds then
0:51:54.319,0:51:56.480
she went into the room and she sent me a
photograph she’s like
0:51:56.480,0:52:00.079
yeah not so much and it was just cracks
everywhere it just was so
0:52:00.079,0:52:03.680
funny that she was so confident and then
actually
0:52:03.680,0:52:09.680
checked yeah ah okay yeah no there isn’t
it’s not black um because children
0:52:09.680,0:52:12.400
because you and i can fall asleep in
daylight because we know that we want to
0:52:12.400,0:52:16.839
be asleep but because they are so
tuned into daylight and so young and so
0:52:16.839,0:52:20.319
unaware
that that would be disruptive enough you
0:52:20.319,0:52:24.559
know it can be quite
it can often be a small thing that can
0:52:24.559,0:52:26.800
be a
big deal so going back to something you
0:52:26.800,0:52:31.839
said about breastfeeding okay
um i don’t ever ask parents to wean or
0:52:31.839,0:52:35.040
mums to wean it’s not
for me to decide when they should stop
0:52:35.040,0:52:38.079
feeding but what i am
saying to parents is if your child has
0:52:38.079,0:52:41.359
fallen asleep through that
we need to move that so like you say it
0:52:41.359,0:52:46.800
would be at a different time
in their bedtime routine usually prior
0:52:46.800,0:52:48.960
to the bath so then there’s a big long
gap
0:52:48.960,0:52:55.119
between firstly when they were fed
um and sleep but also other things going
0:52:55.119,0:52:59.920
on to separate out
a feeding to sleep association again it
0:52:59.920,0:53:04.000
would depend on the age
um usually that’s appropriate beyond
0:53:04.000,0:53:09.040
three months
um and and it’s appropriate beyond three
0:53:09.040,0:53:11.520
months
and older when the child as i say is
0:53:11.520,0:53:14.960
developmentally mature enough to sleep
through the night i’m not asking parents
0:53:14.960,0:53:17.280
to
stop night feeds when the baby isn’t
0:53:17.280,0:53:20.319
ready enough from a size or age point of
view
0:53:20.319,0:53:26.000
obviously that’s not appropriate but um
babies can fall asleep independently at
0:53:26.000,0:53:30.000
night have feedings overnight and still
fall back to sleep independently
0:53:30.000,0:53:34.880
doesn’t stop um it doesn’t mean to say
that they can can’t learn even if
0:53:34.880,0:53:38.880
they’re babies that are being
um fed through the night so um those are
0:53:38.880,0:53:43.200
not
mutually i mean yeah that’s really
0:53:43.200,0:53:46.960
interesting and
i’ve got so many more questions to ask
0:53:46.960,0:53:51.119
but i know that we’ll just
keep talking and talking and talking so
0:53:51.119,0:53:55.280
i think
um yeah i’ve got some really you’ve
0:53:55.280,0:53:58.720
given us some really good insight and
i’m sure the listeners will take away
0:53:58.720,0:54:02.720
um a lot of information from what we’ve
talked about but if they do want more
0:54:02.720,0:54:05.520
information i
know you share a lot of blog posts on
0:54:05.520,0:54:08.480
your website as well which are really
informative
0:54:08.480,0:54:12.720
um so it’d be i mean i’ll share um all
your details in the show notes but
0:54:12.720,0:54:15.680
where’s the best place to contact you
and get in touch with you
0:54:15.680,0:54:19.440
yeah so my website is um sweet dreams
dot
0:54:19.440,0:54:26.160
consulting um i have a facebook page
which is um sweet dreams baby sleep
0:54:26.160,0:54:29.680
and either of those have my email
address and
0:54:29.680,0:54:35.040
um phone number listed um or obviously
you can message me through that
0:54:35.040,0:54:39.599
if anyone wants to reach out to me
letting me know that they came via
0:54:39.599,0:54:44.240
your write this podcast your app that
kind of thing i’m very happy to offer 10
0:54:44.240,0:54:48.240
discount on any services that um they
choose to hire me for if that
0:54:48.240,0:54:52.960
that’s appropriate for that family um
but what i always say to people is
0:54:52.960,0:54:56.400
you know i always offer first initial
free of charge phone call to
0:54:56.400,0:55:02.160
help um understand what’s going on
and what the objective of the parents
0:55:02.160,0:55:04.720
are to make sure it’s
age appropriate and something i can
0:55:04.720,0:55:09.680
actually help with but also for
the parents to get a sense of me and how
0:55:09.680,0:55:12.640
i work
and if i feel like the right fit for
0:55:12.640,0:55:15.680
them
so i really want to get the point across
0:55:15.680,0:55:19.119
that you may not
feel that i am the right person for you
0:55:19.119,0:55:21.839
and that’s totally fine it’s quite a
personality
0:55:21.839,0:55:28.079
related service in that
i want families to know that i’m um
0:55:28.079,0:55:32.000
you know i’m in their corner um but they
want they obviously want to believe that
0:55:32.000,0:55:34.319
that
i am the right person for them so the
0:55:34.319,0:55:39.280
free of charge phone call can often mean
that i can just give a few tips if the
0:55:39.280,0:55:45.520
if the situation is not
so severe or so um
0:55:45.520,0:55:48.559
so challenging they just want a few kind
of ideas
0:55:48.559,0:55:52.000
then i’m very happy to have a free
charge call um to just
0:55:52.000,0:55:55.280
put them in the right direction and if
that’s enough to get them off
0:55:55.280,0:55:58.960
on the right track to resolving their
child sleep like needing to pay for that
0:55:58.960,0:56:04.000
service that’s perfectly fine by me
um i’d love to be able to help people
0:56:04.000,0:56:10.000
however i can um so you know don’t
don’t hesitate um listeners if you do
0:56:10.000,0:56:13.599
want some
help whether it’s um something that you
0:56:13.599,0:56:15.839
want to
you know pay for in terms of you know
0:56:15.839,0:56:20.319
you need extra support or perhaps just
one or two pointers to get you off on
0:56:20.319,0:56:23.040
the right track
that’s amazing and thank you so much
0:56:23.040,0:56:27.680
that’s so kind of you to offer the 10
off um i will definitely add all your
0:56:27.680,0:56:32.079
details into the show notes so
um a place where it’s easy for the
0:56:32.079,0:56:35.599
listeners to find you
and i just want to thank you again and i
0:56:35.599,0:56:37.920
hope that we can do this again at some
point maybe
0:56:37.920,0:56:41.440
talk a bit more in detail about some of
the other things like because i know
0:56:41.440,0:56:44.799
we’ve
only sort of touched the surface yeah i
0:56:44.799,0:56:48.480
mean it
it is a big big subject obviously we are
0:56:48.480,0:56:52.400
um
you know we are talking about as i said
0:56:52.400,0:56:58.079
earlier a fundamental human
need and um as as a race we don’t
0:56:58.079,0:57:02.960
actually understand sleep that much
you know we are quite um uncertain about
0:57:02.960,0:57:05.359
the elements of sleep that we definitely
go
0:57:05.359,0:57:09.200
through and that we definitely need and
that we um
0:57:09.200,0:57:13.680
don’t respond well to if we don’t get
but we are we struggle to understand or
0:57:13.680,0:57:16.960
or to
research sleep in the way that um gives
0:57:16.960,0:57:20.160
us a full understanding of it so it is a
big topic um
0:57:20.160,0:57:24.000
and yeah i would be happy to come back
on and and um
0:57:24.000,0:57:27.040
for more help and insight i’m always
learning i’m
0:57:27.040,0:57:30.400
reading books and listening to audio
books about sleep pretty much
0:57:30.400,0:57:34.480
uh daily so i’m always learning and
therefore i can i’ve always got more to
0:57:34.480,0:57:37.200
share so
if the time is right for you in the
0:57:37.200,0:57:40.480
future then i’d be happy to
that’s amazing thank you so much again
0:57:40.480,0:57:45.280
claudine my pleasure
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